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It was more about how docile and boring and unromantic and patriarchal women are here
it's so funny to be like "I want women to hit on me, but I don't want to change anything about myself and I hate women"
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Tone cops always come out of the woodwork to disparage vegans who ask carnists not to hurt animals, no matter how nicely they ask. But they'd never speak up on behalf of animals, bc they benefit from being the "good vegan" and are beloved by human supremacists for enforcing the status quo. Fighting for animal liberation is *incredibly* stigmatized, and pick-me's try to escape that stigma by throwing activists under the bus. This is common in *all* spheres of social justice. > Respectability politics have been criticized for being "used to rationalize racism, sexism, bigotry, hate, and violence." For example, Bill Cosby "never gave voice to issues of racism, sexism, the failed public school system, health and economic disparities, mass incarceration or police brutality. Instead, he spent over a decade disparaging Black folk to the delight of white conservatives." which made him controversial in the Black community. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics I've said it before and I'll say it again: any challenge to the status quo will be deemed "mean" by those who benefit from it. Misogynists paint those who challenge patriarchy as mean man haters, femin*zis, uppity, unreasonable. [Same thing for activists who fight against racism.](https://youtu.be/UvC4xq32AX8) Human supremacists will always paint vegans as mean bullies for asking them to stop supporting the rape and murder of nonhumans. That doesn't make their framing fair or true. They're just protecting their status quo, which causes the torture and death of over a *trillion* sentient beings every year. Carnists love when pick-me's favor their feelings (about being told to give up their victims' literal corpses) over the feelings of their victims (terror, grief, pain, horror) and the lives of their victims. But change doesn't happen when you flatter power and enforce the status quo. Animals will not be liberated by throwing the people who speak out for them under the bus while protecting the people that harm them. Leftists know this already, but they like to forget when it comes to animal liberation
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I can't believe every comment is saying you should let your kid eat corpses. I assume you wouldn't let your kid kick puppies or hurt their peers. It's the same thing. It's actually good to teach your kids right and wrong. Veganism is not a personal choice or journey. It's an issue of justice. It's not like you're teaching oppressive, reactionary ideology. There's no both sides here. It's good when leftists teach their kids to fight racism and sexism and injustice; it's bad when fascists teach their kids to have no respect for anyone different from them. It's good when vegan parents teach their kids to respect non-human lives; it's bad when carnist parents teach their kids it's okay to harm other animals for entertainment and flavor.
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You have never walked in my shoes. I talk to vegans leftists and vegan activists everyday and the parallel between their experience and that of bi ppl like me is extremely striking. The lack of community support is extremely difficult. So many of the vegans I talk to everyday have vystopia, depression, and suicidal ideation.
https://faunalytics.org/veganism-stigma-and-you/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317768313_Discrimination_Against_Vegans
Vegans are also more likely to be poor.
Carnism is so entrenched as to be invisible to you, but it's not invisible to us. Everywhere we go, we see the corpses of tortured animals being eaten in front of us, billboards and TV ads with corpses on display. Schools and hospitals and prisons don't often accommodate vegans, in fact we're often force fed animal products by such institutions, ignorant doctors prescribe us meat for ailments totally unrelated, tricked into it by community members, and mocked relentlessly by wider society. Not to even mention the shit vegan parents go through. Ppl threaten to take their kids. People harass us about being vegan when we're silent and minding our own business, let alone the shit storm that always always comes when we actually do choose to speak up.
https://joannfarb.weebly.com/blog/not-an-apologetic-vegan
https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-80-animal-rights-as-media-and-pop-culture-punchline
Animal ag is one of the biggest and most powerful industries. It drove colonization in the Americas and the current burning down of the Amazon. To say that they don't have entrenched systemic power is fucking absurd. They have the power to create laws like ag gag and the Animal Entreprise Terrorism Act, they make it illegal to tell the truth about how destructive milk is in schools and offer alternatives like water. Rescuing a pig from certain torture and death could land you behind bars with multiple felonies, because our system treats sentient beings as chattel property instead of persons and criminalizes and marginalizes those who attempt to fight that system.
Also you should get tf out of this comm. I'm so fucking sick of people who rape and murder animals telling us we don't get to feel upset about it, then kicking us or of the community and saying we deserve it bc simply having a voice makes us assholes. Go be a loser fucking oppression gatekeeper somewhere else. I get it, ppl you hate don't get to describe their life experiences or say they're being hurt by you
https://twitter.com/colorspctrum/status/1667257795513667597?t=WSoVTUytTTnU9vTtFmV-qQ&s=19
If you don't think I have the standing to compare my own damn experiences as a bi ace and as a vegan, you're just speaking out of ignorance and bigotry. No amount of stats and facts will convince a fucking bigot
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I'm queer, asshole
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You know, there's actually been studies done about the bigotry vegans face
vegans are viewed more negatively than atheists, immigrants, homosexuals, and asexuals
From a study linked in this article: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2018/11/2/18055532/vegans-vegetarian-research-uk
But you tell carnists they're being abusive harassers and they say we deserve everything that comes to us. Hey, bigots, you know veganism is actually a protected belief in a lot of places and where it isn't protected, it should be. It doesn't surprise me that carnists here give me the same victim blaming I get irl from right wing misogynists. Sorry not sorry for being uppity instead of erasing myself for the sake of your vibes.
Most vegans don't talk about this bc the bigotry and exclusion and hatred we receive is nothing compared to the way carnists and their sick system of animal agriculture treat nonhumans. But it does no one any favors to ignore how or community is repeatedly marginalized everywhere we go, in person and online. Vegans are isolated and alienated and many lose connection and support from their friends, family, and community when they choose to stand up for nonhumans. Sometimes online spaces are literally the only place where leftist vegans can find each other and talk.
The US state views us as literal terrorists, you know. So many animal rights activists from the previous generation were imprisoned and are still behind bars. But god forbid someone tell a carnist their treats are killing animals and the earth. Treats matter more than lives, and anyone who says otherwise is a huge asshole who should be ostracized
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Right, like look at my post history. I'm clearly not here very often, just check in every once in a blue moon. They don't mean "be less online" when they say that, they just mean "shut up and go away." Vegans are very very obviously not welcome here, and it's been that way forever.
I was saying earlier to one of my friends, who used to be a vegan mod here, that hexers don't know their hb history bc the victors pass down site lore and the reactionaries won (and also bc you can't see old posts). So this zombie lie that it was the vegans who started the drama and deserved what we got will never die
The constant harassment and abuse from speciesist reactionaries is what drove us off. But mentioning that part would ruin the narrative that vegans are the bad guys Reminder: https://archive.ph/Xl1Kd
reason.com
But it's the vegans who are shoving their propaganda down our throats 😒
> Abstract: In this essay I recommend ‘theriocide’ as the name for those diverse human actions that cause the deaths of animals. Like the killing of one human by another, theriocide may be socially acceptable or unacceptable, legal or illegal. It may be intentional or unintentional and may involve active maltreatment or passive neglect. Theriocide may occur one‐on‐one, in small groups or in large‐scale social institutions. The numerous and sometimes intersecting sites of theriocide include intensive rearing regimes; hunting and fishing; trafficking; vivisection; militarism; pollution; and human‐induced climate change. If the killing of animals by humans is as harmful to them as homicide is to humans, then the proper naming of such deaths offers a remedy, however small, to the extensive privileging of human lives over those of other animals. Inevitably, the essay leads to a shocking question: Is theriocide murder?
The following info was found by a user on the discord, and it's all in their words --- **CW: animal cruelty, death, commodification, snuff** Here's a description from a sound effects library from a prominent site for audio professionals: > Terrifying squeals, grunts, barks, and sneeze from adult pigs weighing up to 400 lbs, and ambiences from the stables. The second part is recordings of smaller pigs (80 lbs) on the day they were picked up by truck to go you know where! The pigs knew exactly what was going on, which is represented in the sounds recorded. Needless to say, this library has been ear wrecking to put together, but the reward is 246 single files of pure pigs. https://www.asoundeffect.com/sound-library/pigs-fx/?isp_ref_pos=1 This isn't a story. The link is to the store page for the library. This is something I just found. To the best of my knowledge, recordings of murdered animals and other forms of cruelty is an open secret in the audio industries. I haven't been able to find any evidence that someone else has written about it publicly. If you're wondering why recordists would do this, this is how those recordings are used: Bloodborne How to Defeat the Giant Pig Hog Like Monster in the Sewers - https://youtu.be/Za5wRpoVons?t=242 Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga - Gamorrean Guard Death Sound - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIUttgEdsxQ
https://twitter.com/OtherCosmonauta/status/1627058520779812868?t=QqjrDYABQliQQyWhNQZc1g&s=19
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No problem! I always try to back up my effortposts just for situations like this. I was always told the internet is forever, but it's really the opposite. Information gets lost all the time
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since the old one poofed :hail-seitan:
Also, here's this same post on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/VeganTheoryClub/comments/u1w7qy/vegan_marxist_masterpost
- [18 Theses on Marxism and Animal Liberation](https://animalliberationpressoffice.org/NAALPO/2018/08/22/new-publication-18-theses-on-marxism-and-animal-liberation) Alternate link: https://mronline.org/2018/08/28/18-theses-on-marxism-and-animal-liberation This can be read in a sitting, so please read it! "We do not exploit animals because we deem them to be inferior, rather, we deem animals to be inferior because we exploit them." -Marco Maurizi :vegan-liberation-rad: :vegan-liberation-rad: :vegan-liberation-rad: [“Beasts of Burden"](https://web.archive.org/web/20160403060400/http://speciesandclass.com/2014/06/27/beasts-of-burden) an influential socialist-animalist pamphlet from 1999 [Marxism and the Animal Question by Maila Costa](https://animalliberationcurrents.com/marxism-and-the-animal-question) [Beyond Nature: Animal Liberation, Marxism, and Critical Theory, by Marco Maurizi](https://b-ok.cc/book/17101651/5e7537) >"In Beyond Nature Maurizi tackles the animal question from an unprecedented perspective: strongly criticizing the abstract moralism that has always characterized animal rights activism, the author proposes a historical-materialistic analysis of the relationship between humans and non-humans. >"By contrasting the thinking of Hegel, Marx and the Frankfurt School with classical authors in the field of animal rights (such as Singer, Regan, and Francione) this text offers an alternative, social and dialectical theory of animality and a different practical approach to the problem of animal suffering. The hopes for change placed in veganism, liberationism and animal activism are here assumed in a political, revolutionary perspective, in which human and animal liberation finally cease to oppose each other." -- https://brill.com/view/title/56579 [Archive of vegan leftist theory](https://al-archive.nostate.net) (Zines, journals, print media, etc) [Another archive of vegan leftist theory](https://web.archive.org/web/20160407093053/http://speciesandclass.com/library) [Non-human animals within contemporary capitalism: A Marxist account of non-human animal liberation](https://b-ok.cc/book/16038943/e502d0) > Abstract: Many intellectuals, various social movements, as well as all manner of individuals from around the globe who are critical of the ills of global, expansionist capitalism have written, spoken out about, and called for everything from minor changes to radical changes to the existing social, political and economic order. Moreover, many of these groups and individuals have used the tools of Marx’s critique of capitalism in order to advance their positions and calls for change. While most critics of the existing social, political and economic order advance their critical examination of capitalist-spawned injustices with the hope of providing a foundation for us to explore ways to resist, disrupt and replace them, with few exceptions, usually this exploration is confined to (or at least focused on) human communities. However, in this essay, using some key concepts in Marx’s oeuvre, I examine how the global expansion of capitalism, together with its requisite increase in structures of power and domination, are responsible for the intensification of similar injustices for non-human animals, which, according to Marx’s own theoretical commitments, I argue, should also be resisted and, indeed, eradicated. On the flip side, in addition to arguing that a proper understanding of some of Marx’s most fundamental commitments requires us to fight not only for human but for non-human animal liberation, I also argue that genuine animal liberation requires the radical disruption of capitalism and that the more common, less radical animal liberation movements are insufficient for bringing about this end. [Carnists suffer under false consciousness.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8058141) > Abstract: Despite the strength of arguments for veganism in the animal rights literature, alongside environmental and other anthropocentric concerns posed by industrialised animal agriculture, veganism remains only a minority standpoint. In this paper, I explore the moral motivational problem of veganism from the perspectives of moral psychology and political false consciousness. I argue that a novel interpretation of the post-Marxist notion of political false consciousness may help to make sense of the widespread refusal to shift towards veganism. Specifically, the notion of false consciousness fills some explanatory gaps left by the moral psychological notion of akrasia, often understood to refer to a weakness of will. Central to my approach is the idea that animal exploitation is largely systemic and the assumption that moral motivation is inseparable from moral thinking. In this light, the primary obstacle to the adoption of veganism arises not so much from a failure to put genuine beliefs into action, but rather in a shared, distorted way of thinking about animals. Thus, common unreflective objections to veganism may be said to be manifestations of false consciousness. [The bourgeois meat hegemony: a contribution to explaining the persistence of animal super-exploitation in capitalism](https://b-ok.cc/book/16645568/37f3a7) (Gramscian veganism) > Abstract: This paper develops programmatically the concept of meat hegemony with recourse to Antonio Gramsci’s notions of the integral state and of hegemony. It conceptualizes meat hegemony as a reciprocal interplay between (a) the state monopoly on the use of force (which guarantees private property in animals and the exchange of meat-based commodities), and (b) the manufacturing of consent within the working and middle classes towards the accumulation of meat capital. This is achieved, first, by the politico-ideological and organizational unification of meat capital and, second, by economic concessions to subaltern class fractions, a carnivorous mode of life, and pro-meat ideologies. The meat hegemony is rooted in the capitalist socioeconomic relations between capital and labor (capital relation) and capital and animals (capital-animal relation). They produce a contradiction between capital on the one hand and wage laborers and animals on the other which needs to be regulated politically, culturally, and ideologically in order to guarantee the economic reproduction of meat capital. [Animal Resistance in the Global Capitalist Era, by Sarat Colling](https://b-ok.cc/book/16561201/c7278b) "There's really no such thing as the 'voiceless'. There are only the deliberately silenced, or the preferably unheard." -- Arundhati Roy > "The concept of animal resistance is now reaching a wide audience across the social media landscape. Animal Resistance in the Global Capitalist Era offers an overview of how animals resist human orderings in the context of capitalism, domestication, and colonization. Exploring this understudied phenomenon, this book is attentive to both the standpoints of animal resisters and the ways they are represented in human society. Together, these lenses provide insight into how animals’ resistance disrupts the dominant paradigm of human exceptionalism and the distancing strategies of enterprises that exploit animals for profit. Animals have been relegated to the margins by human spatial and ideological orderings, but they are also the subjects of their own struggle, located at the center of their liberation movement. Well-researched and accessible, with over fifty images that aid in understanding both the experiences of and responses to animals who resist, Animal Resistance in the Global Capitalist Era is an important contribution to scholarship on animals and society. The text will appeal to a broad audience interested in the relationships between humans and the other animals with whom we share this planet." And some more reading and discussion: - https://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/994/animal-liberation-and-marxism - http://www.assoziation-daemmerung.de/social-theory-ideology-critique-and-class-struggle - https://animalliberationcurrents.com/the-marxist-turn-in-animal-liberation I also found an interview about the 18 Theses here (use your browser or something to translate): http://yenie.net/marksizm-ve-hayvan-ozgurlesmesi-birlik-hayvan-ozgurlesmesi-sorunu-marksizm-geleneginde-mevcut And this cool article discussing and building on the Theses: http://yenie.net/hayvan-ozgurlesmesi-ve-marksizm One thing I like about this article is how affirming it is about the contributions of other leftist tendencies towards developing animal liberation theory, in a way acting as stepping stones towards its realization in a Marxist theoretical framework. It also has a cool discussion about the place of ethics in scientific Marxism. I won't quote all of it, but here's a tiny bit: >The contradictions we face or witness in life push us to take an ethical position, and then - if it happens - this attitude embraces a scientific method. Che gives the best answer to those who think that ethics has no place in Marxism: "The revolutionary is the one who feels the slap of another person on his face." :che-poggers: Marxismus & Tierbefreiung (Marxism & Animal Liberation) org: https://linktr.ee/mutb https://mutb.org/categories/interviews Note: I'll keep updating this post.
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Reactionaries are explicitly not allowed per the rules of hexbear. They continue to be protected, but it's not too late to ban them
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The consent of those with less power than you should matter too
Am I the asshole for responding to the question "hey, would you like there to be NSFW tags on my BBQ [corpses] a week from now?" with "I would like that, thanks." Hexbear users: a week's worth of struggle sessions about how vegans are lying assholes who are only pretending to have trauma to personally target carnists and make them feel bad But it's the vegans who are assholes
> Dominion uses drones, hidden and handheld cameras to expose the dark underbelly of modern animal agriculture, questioning the morality and validity of humankind’s dominion over the animal kingdom. While mainly focusing on animals used for food, it also explores other ways animals are exploited and abused by humans, including clothing, entertainment and research. We'll start at 8PM EST and watch it here: ▶️ cytu.be/r/hexbear If that time doesn't work for you, watch it anytime here: https://www.dominionmovement.com/watch Edit: Thank you to everyone who joined us tonight.