If you think those resisting genocide are fascists

Don't try black propaganda here, not in any way did I claim that. You are ignoring the structures of Gazan orgs and society, you are talking without investigating and you are disturbing. I recommend you disengage.

Palestinians fighting for their survival are not reactionary

If you think that then you aren't a Marxist. Of course within Gazan society and Hamas you have reactionaries and reactionary actions. Are all? No. Plenty of groups that are or were active in Gaza aren't reactionary. Read Marx's https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852/18th-brumaire/

to first check who at an Israeli festival is a settler and who isn't before

This is what the RAF did with the kidnapping of the Landshut flight. Which was a problem as some Germans did select people for being Jewish/non Jewish. But yes, if you do stuff like that you have to discriminate in any case.

However what you do tell, too, is that killing the ravers (and taking them hostage), is okay in any case as corollary. Rojava was able to fight Isis more targeted than that. The PKK of old did target more focused, as was Mao's and Enlai's actions.

There are virtually no completely US made products anymore. But in any case any car you buy that is completely US made is a commodity of the kind I mention. That is more than comparable to a flight. What you want to say is: I find it acceptable to targeted kill hundreds of ravers outside the occupied territory in Palestine, including tourists, Israeli Arabs and alike.

What I wrote wasn't the cheapest option but for cars the cheapest US option is comparable and you are aware that you are not in general having an as principled stance as you give it now.

Taking hostages is fine, and wtf are you supposed to do if you take parents hostage? Just leave the children there in the middle of a war zone alone?

Israel is small. You can leave the children and the videos of the kids show that the children are not protected, they are hit with sticks and batons and insulted as Jews. Besides that, yes. Those kids are not Tsarist kids. Save your gray propaganda for good goals. You can also find a video in which parents are killed and a child is taken. Or children that are killed. For the outcry that a targeted and thus killed journalist by IDF forces took this ignores that there is a strategic level of Hamas which obviously encouraged what happens, as it is wide spread and communicated via established Hamas video channels and thus shown, it also got an individual vengeance and revenge component.

The actions of Hamas do show their regressive reactionary nature and that the solidarity for socialist groups in Israel is not existent within them. What we know now, too, is also that it doesn't seem to have been a unified operation, meaning that the PFLP and other Marxist groups within Gaza are not really having impact on the strategic operations or are shut out completely.

This means that critical solidarity ought to be critical. If you do a large incursion like that you really argue that shooting young ravers and killing some after taking them hostage, is the best use of your short lived incursion? In any case I have yet to have seen text based Marxist reasoning which isn't vibes based or goes beyond "national liberation justifies any violence".

What is the aim here is to say any person - which includes plenty of Israeli Arabs (at least 20% of the population), also some who were at the rave - outside of Gaza and West Jordan is a legitimate aim to be killed, tortured, (sexually) assaulted, kidnapped. The terror of the guillotine and the committee for hygiene was more targeted and more in line with progressive politics than that. The "no excuse for the terror" doesn't mean it is arbitrary terror, it is focused on revolutionary goals. They also could've had Marxist and pre Marxist reasoning. The operation in Palestina and Israel was not one of national liberation with a class based analysis, but one in which there are people assigned as oppressing colonialists (everyone at the rave i.e. who wasn't coming from Gaza).

The goal of course is to weaken Israel's tourism industry, to unify power within Gaza, to divide Israel and Saudi Arabia and have hostages to do prisoner swaps. Though it is somewhat unlikely that this nearly 60 year old practice will work as before with the current right wing government in Israel and the lack of current good will. It did strengthen unity in Israel.

Targeting tourists at a rave on stolen land next to an open air prison that holds the rightful stewards of that land is ok

Please give me Marxist text backing for your position.

This is a stance that would mean that any person buying US/UK/French/Iranian/Turkish/South Korean/Philipine/Maroccon/Brazilian/Mexican products deserves to die.

It is a moralistic idealist claim, not a Marxist one.

Abducting kids is not okay, hitting them is not okay, sexual violence is not okay, targeting tourists at a rave is not okay.

Is there any evidence that Hamas have been committing sexual violence?

Yes. Even inside of Gaza i.e. against some people deemed gay, some "traitors". Within torture it is mostly not complementary with sexual violence. So within this conflict there will be some cases, the question will be if it is widespread policy (unlikely), if it is "lack of oversight+patriarchy+spaces without law+antisemitism", etc.

However in any case the limit for certain types of violence and certain targets of violence is important. During the last day we did see that plenty on this site aren't really differentiating or equating everyone in Israel as guilty and therefore fine to be killed (without making clear if they mean targeted, or as collateral damage i.e. car bombings that kill civilians in front of military bases).

The line of the ANC's MK was different in that regard that not all violence and all targets were seen as acceptable or justified. So the site's line is more regressive than feminist Marxists ought to be.

*Edit: Hamas did shit the bed in this operation. *

The Turkish attacks since 4th of October against Syria / Rojava are basically invisible in media. The support of some who focus on Palestine and ignore Syria/Rojava is not a principled stance.

Funny but incorrect quip. The German imperial project ended in the genocide against Ovaherero and Nama, with the aim to exterminate them completely. The Jewish genocide in the "Occupied Territories" is aimed not at physical extermination of all the people in Gaza. In any case the actions and deeds really don't have to be compared in terms of "significance" (as moralistic judging term). They can and ought to be understood in themselves and the similarities in practices can be looked at. Equating the actions of Israel and Nazi Germany is diminishing the holocaust. You can critique the state without doing that.

The material base and the white supremacist super structure in terms of the German or South African project are much different to the Israeli one if you look at before 1945, or between then and the 1973 war. However I would wish for as principled stances against the USA and that is sorely lacking.

The project was doomed partly because Soviet Jews already had a place in their communities more or less.

Since the worst antisemitism of the Tsar was ended with the October revolution and the years after it, that rings as if it could be true.

unless Israel lifts the blockade.

Or Egypt. Israel is not able to control what gets in and out of Gaza if Egypt opens its border. Which would make lifting the blockade more likely.

Thanks

@CARCOSA@hexbear.net could you pin this or a similar thread for the next couple of days please?

• Air Flight Tracker Tel Aviv airport https://www.flightradar24.com/airport/tlv (It is heavily disrupted, flights are diverted)
• https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/7/israel-palestine-escalation-live-news-barrage-of-rockets-fired-from-gaza
• https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/7/palestinian-group-hamas-launches-surprise-attack-on-israel-what-to-know
• https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/7/sirens-warn-of-rockets-launched-towards-israel-from-gaza-news-reports

Mohammed Deif, a senior Hamas military commander, said earlier that the rocket fire marked the start of “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood”, and he called on Palestinians everywhere to fight the Israeli occupation.

“We’ve decided to say enough is enough,” Deif said as he urged all Palestinians to confront Israel. “This is the day of the greatest battle to end the last occupation on Earth,” he said in an audio message.

Which if we link to it will get us 100% targeted by who do that anyhow already.

Marx famously was known for not being pedantic about use of terms and phrases.

Israel can't have Hitlerism, though Fascist thoughts and elements of Ethnonationalist support are not a rare thing. Being more or less clear with terms matters as it is a necessary differentiating element for material conditions and intersectional pressures that happen. Antifascism that we do for decades also means to not equate Nazism with things that aren't Nazism.

It is a problem when Israel and Nazi Germany are equated. It is also antisemitic and this community tries to be both (un)critically supportive of liberation fights (by less than progressive forces instead of only ideal Marxists) in Palestine and the Levant and not to ignore antisemitism.

I do really did the outdated voice recording of Lenin in regards to Anti Jewish pogroms. Lenin's real voice reading the speech

Plenty of decisions of the central committee and the politburo during that time were aimed at securing the Soviet Union, which includes actions against reactionaries and white army terrorist leftovers especially in border regions and those in which power couldn't be projected well into. However the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, while having a slapping flag that would make our 2SLGBTQ* comrades proud, never was home to more than 20 000 people labeling as Jews, who remained a minority and who were also not as much in political control as the name implies.

More Jews fought in the Red army than lived in the JAO.

Is for you fascism and nazism / hitlerism the same? And similar to settler colonialism? Israel's genocidal settler colonialism is not Nazism. It isn't Hitlerism either. Though Ukraine's military political complex is filled with Fascists and (Neo-)Nazis.

How do you mean that?